October 21, 2026
A conversation with Max Leisten and Steve Dalton about networking, AI, and the job search.
00:00:00 My name is Max Leissen, founder and CEO of Protopia. Over to you, Steve.
00:00:16 Right.
00:00:17 I’m Steve Dalton. It’s great. Thank you all for joining here. A lot of you know me from my time at Duke, which I love and I’m grateful for. Always be my second family. Max is right, I should be wearing my Duke gear right now, but I forgot. I, I’m just so inspired by the nice day we’re getting here
00:00:22 I was with Fuqua for 17 years, largely focused on programming. I’ve written two books, The 2 Hour Job Search is the first and then the job closer, which is how you create time to do the two-hour job search in an already busy schedule.
00:00:39 And yeah, I’m just really excited to have this conversation today.
00:00:43 Excellent. And Steve, just to make sure, so this is the book that you wrote. This also is partnered with classes. You teach companies and universities and students how to do this, right?
00:01:03 Okay.
00:01:04 Absolutely. So yes, I go to not just educational institutions, a growing percentage of my work is actually with companies. Companies are starting to
00:01:06 Recognize the gap that I think we’ve all been seeing in our students that
00:01:12 This generation of students coming up is more risk averse when it comes to building relationships. They’re less equipped to make relationships in real life, and that’s not their fault. Our generation, we had. We grew up free range
00:01:32 I missed those days
00:01:39 Right.
00:01:40 Playing and getting in fights in the playgrounds and resolving it the next day at school. Yeah, and the modern generation students lost some formative years during COVID. Not just that, they grew up on screens instead of in real life. A lot of their
00:01:42 Play is virtual versus in person, and that natural friction that we enjoyed that readied us organically for the workplace is not happening anymore, and companies are starting to see that and invest in helping to close that gap.
00:01:57 I’d love for that gap to be closed before the students get to companies, before they even get to our business schools or colleges, ideally. But one step at a time, Robin wasn’t built in a day
00:02:06 It is right. It is something you have to learn. Before we jump in, I want to make sure everybody knows that the chat is open, the Q&A is open. Please go ahead and introduce yourself, let everybody know where you’re from. There’s a lot of people on the webinar, right? So speaking of networking, introduce yourself. Maybe you meet someone that you’ve known for a while
00:02:25 And you reconnect. So please go ahead and chat. The unsung hero, Cassie, is on the back end. She’ll see your questions. She’ll queue them up, and we also are allowing time at the end for Q&A. There’s really four components we’ll cover today. Number one, of the
00:02:40 It’s the job search in an AI world, and you probably already know it’s changing dramatically. There’s some staggering numbers out there. We’re going to highlight why networking still wins. Both Steve and I know this, and then Steve is going to talk about how the network, the third edition
00:02:57 of the 2-hour job search and why that needs to be written now. And then I’ll talk a bit about, from a network perspective, how we make networks accessible. Because it is really more critical than ever. And then we have got questions at the very end
00:03:13 Now, Steve, let’s talk about this, and again, we saw last each other at the Alumni Career Services Network event that was actually at Duke over the summer, and you spoke to attendees there, and you made the statement of what the job search is going to be. So
00:03:29 How are… how is AI being used today in a job search? And then, of course, where do you think it’s going
00:03:35 Absolutely. I think there is so much interest from staff and students alike about how to use AI in the job search right now
00:03:45 And a lot of what you’re going to be hearing me talk about today, for those attending, are literally things that I’m trying to process in real time. It feels like the world is changing very fast, and I’m trying to myself understand how to get a step or two ahead of it.
00:04:01 So there’s been an incredible appetite for understanding how to apply AI and harness it for your job search. But the thing that I can’t get past right now is despite all of this interest and investment we’ve been putting with time and energy
00:04:17 To understand it. It seems like nobody is happier with their outcomes than they were before AI came on the scene. If anything, they’re more disappointed with the outcomes. So all of our investment in AI has not yet yielded an increase in satisfaction
00:04:33 or results that we can really point to. So it really seems like we are headed to a place where we’re going back to the future. I think we can all agree
00:04:45 I’m thinking, like, 6 months, but I don’t know what you all think, and I’d be curious to see your take in the chat in the chat
00:04:52 like, right now, there are theoretically bots that could apply for jobs while we sleep. We tell it what we want. We link it to our LinkedIn. We link it to our CV or resume. And we say, if you see anything that looks like it’s relevant, apply to it.
00:05:09 There’s no mainstream technology. We can’t all point to a brand name that we all trust to do that, so I think that brand name, we will know those brand names within 6 months. I’d be curious to see how long you think it’ll take us to get there in the chat. If you think it’ll be sooner or later than 6 months
00:05:24 But once that happens, once AI has essentially taken over the technique for job searching called applying online, what does the job search look like? I can’t wait for this to happen because I think that’s so many hours of potentially productive time that’s put back
00:05:42 Our job seekers’ plates, how do they choose to use them is the big question. And are we preparing them to use those wisely? So this madness that we’re navigating through right now, I think it’s got a short lifespan before the world changes again in a more permanent way
00:05:57 On my LinkedIn, if you follow me, you’ll see I think they’re really fundamentally only three ways to find a job. There’s applying, which I think is about to go away. There’s attracting, which is that school of thought of become a thought leader in your space. Comment on other influencers
00:06:12 ideas about your your desired target profession. And then there’s networking
00:06:17 I’m a bit of a homer for networking, but I think the right answer is a combination of all three right now, but a combination of the two that will remain. And even attracting is susceptible to potential disruption from AI. There are already bots that will pretend to comment, or that will comment on your behalf to other people’s
00:06:36 posts. So it’s a really interesting inflection point right now, but really long story short, I think
00:06:44 AI, we’ve been focusing a lot on it, but it hasn’t made anyone’s lives better. And I think we need to start looking ahead to the next wave, and the next wave is going to be, what do we do when applying goes away?
00:06:55 Yeah, from my perspective, I mean, the CIC is massive arms race out there, right? I mean, I love AI and recently Meta launched its AI assistance and there’s a couple of companies already with these universal agents that do anything you want to. And part of me is excited, right? It’s helpful
00:07:11 But then the other part is also if anybody can apply to anything and companies, ATS systems are already struggling with this wave of applications, which is really insane. And one of the things that you said at the conference that that’s the reason I reached out is saying
00:07:28 Within two years, right, and maybe it’s much shorter, we’re all going to have access to these job search agents that know who you are, know what you’re looking for, have done an interview with you to kind of job you’re looking for, the companies you’re interested in, and they will just apply to anything without you lifting a finger
00:07:44 And then you’re going to apply to 10,000 jobs a month, and that’s… that’s not sustainable. It really… it’s going to create huge issues for all of us.
00:07:55 And this actually, and one thing in preparation for this webinar, this article stuck out to me that really kind of highlights a bit the challenge you have, right? Everybody’s going to be looking the same
00:08:08 Yeah, absolutely. Already, and I’ve got really interested in this topic, started reaching out to recruiters to understand like what is going on? Why isn’t AI making this better on your end? And AI really isn’t all that involved on the ATS side
00:08:24 ATSs are still pretty simple. They use knockout questions. If you don’t have the right work authorization, you’re not going to make it through. You’re going to get that… if you don’t have enough years of experience, you’re going to get that automatic rejection that so many of our students are frustrated by
00:08:39 But once we have everybody’s using the same bots to to enhance their profiles the same way, I’ll
00:08:47 potential benefit goes away. It’s a wash at that point. So it’s really hard. The one thing that seems to matter right now in the short term is speed. If you’re in the first batch of people that apply, if you’re in that first hour, if you’re one of the first 20 they look at
00:09:03 Especially at larger corporations where a recruiter is looking at the resumes to decide on a subset to hand off to the hiring manager who’s in the job function of choice.
00:09:13 They’re just looking for good enough. They’re looking to satisfy rather than optimize. But right, but very soon we’re going to get to the point where everybody’s optimized and that that first pass is going to be even more meaningless than it already is. What comes next?
00:09:35 Yep.
00:09:36 Yeah, I mean, the one thing I’m speculating is that I think systems and ERP systems are going to go so smart that they will actually reach out to people, right? They’re going to identify talent based on someone I will meet in three months based on what the AI predicts and just get rid of applications
00:09:43 So, we, you know, and you said this also that job applications, job search process going away. And so for me, the question for you is that if anybody can apply to anything, right, how do you make a difference?
00:09:57 What does that mean?
00:09:58 Yeah, I think, and I’ve taken to calling this the universal round one. I think the universal round one, every company literally has the same round one interview and any student can apply can apply to it starting now. The universal round one interview, which again
00:10:13 Every company features is get somebody at that company in your job function of choice to recommend you to another person
00:10:20 That’s it. That’s how it works at every company. You only need to learn it once for one company, and it’s applicable to all companies. But that’s the fact that you can convince someone to do a rather irrational behavior, risk their own social capital on behalf of a job seeker
00:10:36 Like, there’s nothing in it for the person who makes that referral, especially in economies like what we’re experiencing right now. But that’s why it works. It’s because someone is irrationally is demonstrating the ability, I’m willing to risk something of myself
00:10:50 to advocate for this person to get further in the process. Those signals will become more and more important as applications become more and more commoditized.
00:10:59 Yeah, I mean, but I love what you said there because again, one of the things that I really deeply care about when I talk to students around why they’re not reaching out, this anxiety that you’re going to be rejected, I always tell people, you do them a favor if you reach out and give them a chance to help
00:11:24 Yeah.
00:11:25 Right? Because the therapeutical impact of helping someone are massive. So people want to help. You just got to make it easy to help and relevant for them doing it. One thing I’ve also recently LinkedIn came up with these statistics, and you probably have seen this
00:11:31 They published it that you’re seven times more likely to be hired if you’ve got a connection. What do you think about these stats?
00:11:39 I think they’re understated, if anything. I think
00:11:41 Okay, okay.
00:11:44 But, you know, the facts are what they are. Like, I think
00:11:50 just there’s such a big difference between what an inside connection is, like an inside… so I’ve taken the call, like, again, if you’re following, please follow everybody, please follow me on LinkedIn. Like, I do kind of live my life out loud
00:12:01 Please do. Yes
00:12:03 And I only… if I’ve seen it before, I’m not going to bother posting it, so I try to be quality over quantity. But one of the featured posts on my LinkedIn is, I think there are three types of referral. I think one of the ways that our job seekers brains
00:12:23 Yeah.
00:12:24 We’re wired over hundreds of thousands of years to avoid risk. Our brain tries to keep us safe from like ever since our caveman days, from both not just physical harm, but psychological harm
00:12:33 And I think it’s important, so much of the third edition of the two hour job search is inspired by concepts from therapy. CBT is a big part of it. When students are confronted with networking, you can lay all the facts out for them about how much more effective it is, and they’ll still find a way to put up a new barrier
00:12:50 to push that off a little bit, and that’s their brains trying to keep them safe. And part of our job, like the next wave is, how do we get our students to thank their brain for its service? Thank you, brain. I know you’re trying to keep me safe.
00:13:02 Yeah.
00:13:03 But I need to do this to pay for myself, provide for myself and my loved ones.
00:13:08 So one of the key posts on my LinkedIn recently is getting students who push back and say, well, networking is gross, it’s unauthentic. And I don’t, my dad doesn’t go to the right country club, like with the CEO is to let them know there are three types of referrals. If someone you talk to says, apply through this link, that’s an online referral
00:13:25 That’s a point of parity, not a point of differentiation. Everybody got one for Amazon. So like, and once you get it and keep reusing it over and over and over again. But it’s not if that’s not advocacy. But it’s called a referral
00:13:37 So absolutely, it’s accurate to call it a referral, but I want to clarify that’s an online referral. It’s not a person to person referral. Now, if the person to person referrals, there’s two big varieties. There’s the my dad goes to the same country club as the CEO variety of referral
00:13:53 Also a referral. But you didn’t do anything to earn it. So I call that birthright referral. And our students who say like, I’m not from the right family. I’m a first gen college student. Most people don’t have birthright referrals. That’s why we go to grad school in a lot of cases. That’s why we get more education
00:14:09 The best our students can do is what I call an earned referral. That is convincing a stranger to become an advocate for you on an as needed basis. So really giving people the tools, recognizing that, okay, only a minority have the birthright referrals, online referrals though aren’t our target. We need to focus on the earned ones
00:14:28 of getting a human to risk their social capital to introduce you to another human so that you’re known as a friend rather than a stranger. That’s really what this process is about now.
00:14:37 Sorry, I’m going to jump in here, Steve. We have an interesting kind of comment slash question from Yulia. So
00:14:46 They state, we hear from a lot of alumni that referrals are only good when you know someone well or that can vouch for them. Otherwise, referrals don’t tend to be very valuable.
00:14:58 More and more folks say on LinkedIn that they do not take calls or want to talk to people, etc. What have you kind of observed around this maybe LinkedIn of it all
00:15:10 Yeah, I mean, it’s getting messier out there. Again, our students know that they should network, and… but very few are trained to network.
00:15:21 And that’s especially in the undergrad side, especially in the high school, like, levels, like, they’re being told to network. So that’s like me saying, go, go bake a German chocolate cake. If you are not without a recipe, like, that’s what we’re doing to these kids. We’re saying, go bake a German chocolate cake, and they’re getting all these tips about, oh, be sure that you get all your ingredients measured and laid out first, but no one’s giving them a recipe
00:15:43 So you’ve got a lot of untrained people, like, taking a hack at making a German chocolate cake, failing, declaring the whole networking thing a sham or ineffective, and then never trying it again. And their brain finds comfort in that. Okay, you tried it once. It’s not on you anymore. Like, let’s keep you safe. You don’t have to do that ever again.
00:16:02 But we’re not giving them instructions that they can follow. I think it would be insanity to expect someone to bake a German chocolate cake without giving them a recipe, but that’s what I find that the career services
00:16:13 body of intellectual capital gives them tips for baking a German chocolate cake without ever giving them a recipe, and then blame… and then we wonder why they get so stuck, and why they get so frustrated by this. So I think there are people who do bad networking. They reach out and say, I’m looking for this kind of job, can you introduce me to someone who knows more about that job
00:16:34 That is nothing like what I teach. That is going to cause harm. That is going to make this person hate networking. But again, it’s networking, it’s just bad networking. And that’s why I’m really, really specific. What I teach is called proactive networking to differentiate it from the body of knowledge of networking, like, that’s out there
00:17:06 Right
00:17:07 There are 3 types of referrals. We’re going after earned referrals. We’re not going after the online referrals. Language really matters here. So I get that some people are not open to advocating for others like they’re not going to risk their own social capital for a stranger, but especially not a stranger who doesn’t approach them in a curious and authentic way
00:17:11 But how to approach someone in a curious and authentic way is not elementary. It doesn’t just go without saying. You’ve got to really teach something. And that with students are not going to opt into that and on top of an already busy day, you’ve got, we really, really need to increase the rigor with which this is taught.
00:17:30 Yeah, and I think the other part, you highlight this in your book, being vulnerable isn’t actually an asset, right? That makes people more likely to care about you. First of all, I’m hungry now. Thank you for the German chocolate cake. But the other part is, and you talked a bit about is that teaching the recipe, I would actually go further in saying you need to start baking in school
00:17:50 Bake this in class, have a class that teaches students how to network, right? So that becomes second nature. And if anybody has a good recipe for German chocolate cake, please let me know. That’s all I can think about now. So that was a great question. The other part is
00:18:08 Networking is acts as people who know what you don’t, right? And so
00:18:13 And obviously, there’s a difference between strong ties and weak ties we should talk about, but the other concern I have is a little bit, and we talked about this, is access to networks in particular for low social capital students, which I really care about, right? We can teach them, but if you never
00:18:28 We don’t never taught how to do it, it’s really hard. But talk about strong ties and weak ties, and how they’re different.
00:18:35 Yeah, I mean, strong ties, like, again, it’s a popular piece of conventional wisdom in the job search space to start with people you already know. Go to your old coworkers. And
00:18:52 Yeah.
00:18:53 It’s easy to say that. I think it actually actively does harm because those people tend to share social networks with you. If you all worked at the same company. So you all know the same people, you’re all looking for the same jobs. If you’re job searching, so that, again, causes complications.
00:19:01 I think the real strength, and this is back to Mark Renovater’s research at Stanford from, I think, the 60s, the strength of weak ties is the term that he came up with for it. This is so essential. There are many pieces of advice. I’m currently writing a series on LinkedIn on advice, job search advice that I wish would die in a fire, because I think it does so much harm
00:19:20 But keep your network warm at all times is going to be a future installment, because I just don’t think that’s realistic or possible in an authentic way. I think the more important skill is being able to catch a fish instead of having fish. It’s to be able to turn a stranger into an advocate on an as needed basis, and
00:19:38 A central tenet to that is understanding that the techniques, even when you have the right instructions, unlike baking a chocolate cake, it’s not going to work 100% of the time, even if you do everything right, because people are fundamentally different. And whenever you’re cooperating with other people, there’s a wild card thrown in
00:19:56 So I think it’s important to note not only are strangers your best option, but most of them aren’t going to be open to risking their social capital on your behalf, even if you do everything right. There are 3 types of people you’ll encounter. There are curmudgeons who will never engage with you because they just don’t want to get involved.
00:20:11 Those aren’t the worst people. It’s the obligates you need to worry about, the people who act out of a sense of obligation. Maybe they’re alum and they don’t want to lose face in front of a current student. They want to do just enough to appear to be helpful, but like ghost you when it’s time to risk their social capital to actually be helpful.
00:20:27 So they give you a negative return on investment where curmudgeons give you a zero return. We need to teach our students to focus on boosters. They’re only about 10 to 20% of the population, so you’re going to have to kiss frogs to find your prince or princess in this process. But the prince or princess is worth it
00:20:43 We just need to recognize that that’s a lot of anxiety before they start getting wins. Like they are going to fail before they succeed. That’s the growth mindset that Carol Dweck research that we all love.
00:20:54 But it is it takes a village to really teach that. And I know in the career services world we do, but unfortunately these the growth mindset research is not really being conveyed in stats class or a chemistry class in quite the same way
00:21:10 Yeah, I was going to highlight there’s an individual at the Christian Institute that you may be familiar, Julia Friedland Fisher. She talks a lot about weak ties and the impact of an AI and really just encourage people to reach out to weave ties. Really critical research
00:21:25 telling people why those strong ties actually is not always the right approach for you. So the other element is when we talk about mentoring, right, and you talk about this in your book, the different paths, the different constituents you reach out to networking
00:21:42 Share that a little bit with the audience, right? Who they should reach out to.
00:21:46 With someone doing the job is absolutely the most important. Functional relevance is by far the single best predictor of whether someone is a booster. If you want to do marketing, you’ve got to talk to marketing people. And that, again, there’s a lot of advice and a lot of what AI learned. It learned from reading the internet. So there’s a lot of advice that says, start with alumni, even if they’re doing different jobs.
00:22:07 But it’s really hard to show up authentically and be genuinely curious in someone if they’re not doing the job you want. You can only be so curious about the work-life balance of the company, or the gym facilities, or whatever. You’re not going to get smarter from talking to someone who works in a different job function than you want to do
00:22:24 So you’ve got to start with people who are doing the job you want. Alumni are great. Absolutely. If you have options that are alumni. That’s a great second piece of criteria to go with. With someone who’s made the same transition, absolutely. I like people who are one to two levels above where you’d start. So
00:22:42 Ideally, somebody, and this is the like
00:22:45 The second best criteria beyond functional relevance to me is someone who’s been promoted while they’ve been at their company.
00:22:51 So if they’ve gone from finance director to senior finance director, that’s great. The company liked them enough to pay them more money and give them more responsibilities. They’re feeling themselves. They have some social capital to spend on behalf of a brand new job seeker.
00:23:06 The person who just graduated 6 months ago, who doesn’t know if they’re going to keep their job, if there’s another round of layoffs, that person is going to be likely more open to talk, but not have the juice necessary to help you along, which again helps the job seekers brain think, see, this networking thing doesn’t work. You just reach out to someone who graduated 6 months ago
00:23:25 If they’re not going to help you, then nobody’s going to help you. There’s a lot of catastrophization our brains are willing to do to make… to protect us from this process. So ideally, it’s important to start with somebody who’s doing the job you actually want, has some tenure in it, and someone who’s worked ideally who has an affinity group with you, ideally a school that you share or some other background that you feel strongly about
00:23:48 Yeah, this particular is three groups, that conversation was super helpful. But one of the things you highlight in your book as well that stuck with me is that obviously there’s the speed element, right? I think to your point, that’s really important. The faster you apply, especially in this new world, the better for you, but
00:24:05 You need to compete on how well you actually network. And this really is obviously transition to your book. Can you talk a bit about
00:24:13 How would that transition can be supported by career services
00:24:17 Yeah, I think, again, it’s the universal round one. I think this is a better way for companies to identify talent than who put the best application out five years ago, or even now enhanced by AI. Like if you can convince a stranger to risk their own social capital, like
00:24:33 That’s a useful skill in any job. Literally every job will benefit from your ability to do that. So are we teaching? Are we giving them that knowledge? Are we requiring them to learn it even though it’s not fun?
00:24:45 Because the only reason they’re doing stats is because they’re required to do stats, or financial accounting is because they’re required to, even though that doesn’t come up in most jobs. Why the ability to
00:24:56 Earn jobs is treated differently has always been a bone to pick with me. So I think
00:25:04 We can
00:25:06 We’re moving beyond that point where the applications are going to mean anything. So now that universal round one interview kicks in. It’s going to come back to a world where potentially we have to do hard copy applications. That may also come back. That wouldn’t surprise me
00:25:22 I
00:25:23 I know, right? Right. That helps you probably stand out, right? I mean, handwritten applications
00:25:32 Right.
00:25:37 I like that.
00:25:38 I think companies, and I’ve heard this from talking recruiters, they just want a meaningful barrier to entry to be put back into the process so that only interested candidates and qualified candidates are able to apply. Now, one way to do that would be to charge everybody a dollar to apply and then everybody would freak out from a PR perspective, but I can see us actually going back to, in addition to your application, here’s a code
00:25:53 Right. Oh, I like that. Okay.
00:25:54 You’ve submitted your online application, now put this code on your handwritten resume and cover letter packet. That’s going to cost way more than a dollar, but I think that would PR wise go over better. So we might see a return to that snail mail supplement to an online application just so
00:26:12 Yeah.
00:26:13 Companies have a way of minimizing or shrinking that talent pool, but we can’t trust that that’s going to happen. The one thing we can trust is that networking will still work. It’s going to work even more, and it’s going to be more and more important. So
00:26:20 Yeah.
00:26:21 yeah, let’s train them to do this now, and then that will in turn will make our alumni more empathetic and more likely to bend their ear and say, Yeah, I don’t want to be a currudgeon. I know how painful this process is. I had to do it myself. Let me let me pay it forward.
00:26:35 Yeah, and you actually hit on something I’m going to cover, right? Getting alumni to network with students actually has dual benefit. From my side, really, you know, obviously we’re talking about AI that it’s going to make our life easier from what I am interested in the cure
00:26:51 curious about is that universities need to do a better job, obviously, making these networks accessible, right? It’s teaching networking, and then how do you make it really easy for someone to network? But this actually brings me now to
00:27:03 Oh, before we get to that, do you mind, I have a bunch of interesting questions in the chat before we
00:27:08 No, I’d like to wait. I’d like to wait with those, Cassigris. Yep.
00:27:11 Okay, we’ll wait then. Sorry
00:27:13 No, that’s okay, yeah, if you could just please open the chat up to everybody, just everyone, that’d be amazing. Thank you, Cassie.
00:27:21 On the… on the 2-hour job search, so you just publish a third edition, I think it came out on October the 6th
00:27:28 Why a third edition, why now?
00:27:32 The second edition had the unfortunate, or had the misfortune of coming out in March 2020. So not like anything important happened in the world, around that time. So yeah, a bomb went off in all of our lives, and COVID happened, and AI was right on its heels
00:27:48 Yet the process still held true for six years. Like the second edition did better than the first edition.
00:28:14 Right
00:28:15 Because I think the people who I think there’s still, we know the need for it. But the third edition, it was time. Enough had changed. AI makes so many steps to this process so much easier, specifically that lamp list, the L column, for whatever reason, our students are so open to companies they’d never heard of if AI tells them to be interested in those companies
00:28:20 than if they were to find those companies proactively using Hoovers or a Crunchbase database. So the lamp list, which used to take 70 minutes, now takes about 40, because the elk step is so short. So the prioritize process that I always used to feel bad, like, I need to apologize for the lamp list, because it’s time ask, and that time ask goes away
00:28:42 students honestly find that interesting to engage with AI that way to find companies that aren’t already on their radar.
00:28:49 The contact pieces, the key here is resisting AI. I think I’m a big believer in bright tech rather than high tech. So those steps, for those of you who’ve read previous editions will look pretty similar. The outreach email is now a seven point email rather than a six point email
00:29:06 Because
00:29:07 writing an email that does not look like AI, because again, AI was trained on what it learned on the Internet. People will write very similar sounding outreach emails if they ask AI to do it. So pointedly, making them shorter and and hitting the key points that differentiate it
00:29:23 That’s really, really important, so it’s less AI rather than more AI in the outreach portion. But AI is so useful in that third step of the 2 h job search for those informational meetings to be able to do a SWOT analysis on the company that without having to log into a database first to be able to understand the promotion schedules at a company, to understand the 10 key trends or 10 key pieces of jargon
00:29:47 or 3 most important trends on the mind of a product manager at Waymo. Like that is, we are really limited only by our own creativity. But pre-informational meeting prep, talking like someone who’s had the job before for 5 years, like that is more feasible now than ever. So
00:30:04 And AI just can enhance that process to make those conversations more authentic. The key for all of it, though, is that the target market for the 2 h job search is anyone who is or has the capacity to become vulnerable and humble
00:30:20 And that is a personal, it is a psychographic, not a demographic. And that is not everybody. And everybody has different barriers. And the more experience you get, the harder it is to be vulnerable and humble. So this process, some mistakenly believe it’s for young people. It’s for everybody who has the ability to lead with curiosity rather than self-promotion
00:30:39 Once you give people the permission to lead with curiosity, they prefer it to leading with self-promotion. But again, it requires training. So it was just the time to update the process to incorporate AI fully. Take the good from it and resist the bad to help stand out as a human being in a sea of bots.
00:30:59 So let me ask, no, this is wonderful. Let me ask this, Steve, where do you see people most with a struggle most with applying to our job search?
00:31:07 I think it’s being comfortable with the low success rates and not low success rates, the
00:31:18 Right.
00:31:19 they’re not even low, they are just the success rates that they are. The success, you know, 10 to 20% of the population are boosters, and they will give you the vast majority of help you get in your process… in your job search. The thing is, there’s no good analog in all of our lives where 10 to 20% success rate looks pretty good
00:31:33 Now, I was a chemical engineer, 10 to 20% was an A on most of my tests back in the day. I know it’s hard to wrap your brain around that. It was really humbling
00:31:40 We all get A’s now.
00:31:51 Yeah.
00:31:52 humbling experience. But the best base… I hate sports analogies, because they’re not equitable or inclusive, but there aren’t great analogs other than baseball players. Like, they get paid millions of dollars to only fail 80% of the time they go to the plate
00:31:55 I’m looking for something that everybody can relate to that’s not sports related, but that’s simply not out there. Where people struggle is they allow their brain to catastrophize. Like, okay, people didn’t respond, that means networking doesn’t work. I had… well, I heard… I read one article where somebody says, you know, if you’re going to write to me, you gotta think like a consultant and tell me how you’re going to save me money in that first message. Oh, well, that’s different than what the two hour job search says. I’m going to stop
00:32:27 Right.
00:32:28 So giving them infrastructure for all of the conflicting messages and just saying, this is a baking recipe. Follow it exactly. It can give you very accurate pictures of what to expect at each step in the process, but you’ve got to treat it like a recipe. You’ve got to follow it closely, except in the steps where it’s clear in the book
00:32:38 Where it’s baking and where it’s cooking. When you can cook, you can make changes and adapt to it. That’s great. But bake when you need to bake in the two-hour job search third edition really, really lays out clearly, here’s where baking is required, and here’s where cooking is more appropriate.
00:32:52 Yeah, the one thing that keeps sticking out to me, and I think you probably see people struggle with this, is the efficiency part, right? You talk about should I use a CRM system for applications, right? It needs to be efficient. Be okay with people not responding and stick to that system, right? And people struggle with that, especially when something is sensitive as looking for a
00:33:11 Yeah.
00:33:12 So I’m not surprised. So the other part is, so
00:33:19 AI for the prep, people for the rest, right?
00:33:23 You know, again, we talked about this, most people don’t realize that other humans would like to help. Talk a little bit about some of the elements to talk in the book around the research element, the lampless, which obviously I love, and there’s like an example in there. You start with a list, but you iterate on a list and leave some things behind.
00:33:45 Right.
00:33:46 Yeah, we covered a lot of this. I’ll give, and I’ll give a story, a quick story that illustrates the importance of this. I’ve heard this story multiple times, but one very memorable time at the University of Toronto
00:33:57 I had a student come up to me, said that they heard my talk last year, and they were excited to come back and see the updates, but they wanted to tell me about this consulting firm they applied to, and they didn’t hear anything back. And then they saw my talk last year, and they decided to reach out for an informational meeting. That led to another, and that led to an interview, which led to a final round interview, which led to an offer
00:34:17 And the day after he got the offer phone call, he got the automatically generated email saying, I’m sorry, we don’t see a match, we’ll keep your resume in our database. And he was literally 2 different people when he applied online versus networked. And I think that is something that our students just really don’t
00:34:45 Yeah.
00:34:46 Grasp. I think AI is a tool. If you ask AI to outsource this networking process, it will give you a lot of bad information, like keep your network warm at all times, which is just not really a feasible thing that people can do. It will teach you to write an outreach email that is, hope you’re well, and then talk about like, which is like it’s everywhere, this kind of word filler. You don’t know what to say, so you use more words
00:34:55 I’m guilty of that too, right?
00:34:57 Yeah, it’s like, so keeping things very, very short and elegant because there’s no room to hide in a seven point email. So AI is very helpful with the research. It’s very helpful with surfacing companies. It’s wording difficulty emails. That’s great
00:35:14 But it’s AI overused, especially in the relationship building, the first impressions, if you’re using the AI to make your first impression, then that is problematic. That is a part of the process that is absolutely baking, not cooking. So knowing where to use AI and
00:35:31 To make your life easier and knowing where to resist it because AI is trained a lot on what it finds on the internet. That’s the art of the modern job search.
00:35:39 Right. So when we spoke, you highlight the study. I’m a fool for actually having missed this. This is the ASHB data and there was actually a thread on the NACE form, which some of you may be familiar with NACE around the efficacy and connections
00:35:56 The LinkedIn study they published. And so there’s this long-term ASHP analysis of 38 million applications. And when you look at the data, it screams at you that networking is by far the most effective method. When you apply code
00:36:11 When you get a referral, you’re 36 times more likely to get a job offer. That’s mind-numbing. That’s obviously behind internal candidates. They’re number one, but the referral is number two. So, especially as you’ve highlighted, Steve, going into the AI world with job search likely will disappear
00:36:29 You have no choice but to go with networking and finding those boosters and getting referrals, because the data is really clear. You’re much more likely to get that offer. So that is… if you walk away with one thing from this presentation.
00:36:43 I think the number 36. The data is really compelling. You all know anecdotally that that is the right way, but they’ve done a great job really digging into this piece.
00:36:55 From our side, so now hopefully becomes clear that networking teacher networking is critical and it’s going to be more critical going forward, hopefully within the university context. I often tell institutions we work with
00:37:10 You have to teach networking the moment the student sets foot on campus. It is a life skill. The skills that you teach students while they’re on campus are changing so fast, none of us can predict it, but building relationships will never go away
00:37:25 And to help you open doors and advance your career. And so, that is ultimately what we do. So the other side is now, how do you give institutions access? And then imagine a world, it were easy for someone to
00:37:40 Request informational interview to follow this 7-point email, which really students need to memorialize, and you would apply that mechanism to go reach out to our alumni network. In Duke’s case, there’s 200,000 living alumni in Ohio State, 640,000
00:37:57 How do you find the meal in the haystack to get people to raise their hand at that 10 to 20% efficacy? Because that actually tracks with our data. Not everybody’s going to respond, but reach out and ask alumni to help
00:38:12 using the template that Steve has outlined in the book. Actually, if it were up to me, I think everybody, every student just needs to have that book, give it to them when they come on campus. Sorry, Steve, but I really, like, every school has to teach it, because it’s going to become
00:38:29 Absolutely critical. Now, how does that work from the protopia side? And again, we are an AI platform that works with institutions to connect students, alumni. We make it really easy for a student to ask. Then the right alum are matched based on a comprehensive model, education
00:38:47 Last engagement, occupational data, degree, you name it. And then we get those alum to respond. They meet, hopefully an informational interview, a call, just advice.
00:38:58 company that you should be exploring it to put it on your lamp list. And then, of course, you build your network and you boost your social capital. And that’s why, right, I often advocate this model of a network university. This is the university alma mater is probably the largest network that a student will ever belong to.
00:39:16 And it is a dormant asset that not many students and institutions use to its full capacity, especially when you think about Networking career success. What does that look like in practice? I mean, we’ve got schools, University of Mary Washington example here, Western Governors example
00:39:35 London School of Economics, students reach out, they ask about best employers, they ask about what is it like to have your job, right? Is this career available to me? What does it take to get in management consulting? If you ask the right alum at the right time
00:39:50 They will absolutely respond because human beings are wired to respond. It feels good to help someone that you can help and do them a favor, because again, we all… we all like and need to do service, right? It speaks to the… Steve talked about, our original caveman days
00:40:06 We are part of a group, we want to be part of their group, we want a reaffirmation that that group is going to be there for us when we need it. That actually drives individuals to help in saying, yeah, I’m happy to talk to you about this career, and there’s actually an opportunity you should be looking at.
00:40:21 From our side, you know, why we collaborate with schools, we get amazing answers, amazing results, where most questions get an answer. Alumni and students rave about that, you know, they actually connect with someone that cares
00:40:36 and getting them a reasonable response. And actually, Steve, I was looking at some of the data that you published in terms of how that tracks what you’ve seen versus what we have seen, and it’s very, very close. Again, when you reach out to someone, they will look at it. And I loved especially what you said, and I could go back to I’ve talked to our team saying
00:40:55 Don’t make the email too long, because when an email is too long, it contains a lot of information, the alum literally is going to pause and saying, okay, I want to be thoughtful. I’m going to take my sweet time, I can’t do it right now, and I’ll respond in the weekend
00:41:10 So you’ve got to make it short. It is a Trojan horse to open the door, and I cannot stress it enough. So why are we talking about this in this webinar? And I often talk to career services leaders, alumni leaders, advancement leaders
00:41:26 Yeah, for me, career success is absolutely critical for universities. Number one is successful alumni, and Steve talks about this, they become boosters. They care more, they move up in the world, they’re going to help others walk in their footsteps. So that’s why networking is critical
00:41:43 Because again, you want alumni to end up in better careers and especially with some of the economic instability we have right now, number two career outcomes drive enrollment and rankings. We see parents and prospective students asking
00:41:58 What does my life look like after I graduate from here, right? Is there an ROI? Talk to me about careers in advertising that may be available to me once I graduate, because I want to know what that outcome is. And it, of course, drives ranking, so that’s another reason you care
00:42:13 about career success and networking. And then, of course, the old saying, everybody’s in fundraising university. That is kind of true. A working alum is a giving alum, a working alum that has a better job gives more. And if you help alumni with their careers
00:42:30 their affinity is going up. So it really is a win-win. It’s a flywheel effect. That’s why institutions really need to care about networking. So, speaking of networking, Steve, you knew I was going to have this slide here. Talk about the green button
00:42:51 Good.
00:42:52 Yes, so welcome to the green button paradox, everybody. It’s been dominating my brain for a good couple of weeks now. Again, if you follow me on LinkedIn, you’ll have caught this argument, but this is a thought experiment and I want you all to participate. I want you to imagine that there’s a green button and it
00:43:04 If a job seeker presses it, they will immediately have downloaded into their brain all of the why of networking. Here’s all the data that shows how much more effective it is at getting you interviews and jobs. Here’s how to do it authentically rather than inauthentically or grossly.
00:43:21 Here’s a… and then furthermore, not just the why, but the how. You get perfect technique. So you understand how to do all the outreach and how to conduct those meetings, and how to follow up on those meetings to transition them into interviews. So it takes away that fear of embarrassment, of doing poorly, and
00:43:39 all that warning time that might be in there. The one catch is, if you push the green button and have all that free knowledge downloaded immediately, it will initially, it will immediately issue a batch of requests for an informational meeting.
00:43:53 So your networking will start people at companies you want to work for will expect to see you on that date and time to do the meeting.
00:44:01 The question is for all of you in the chat box, please just put a number in. What percent of your students do you think would hit the button?
00:44:10 Alright, let’s see if somebody punches in there. What percentage of… Right, right, right, right, right, right. But it is
00:44:12 No right answers. My guess is just as qualified as yours on this.
00:44:18 Danica says 10
00:44:20 Tammy says 6
00:44:30 Yeah, so
00:44:31 Okay, Kimberly 50. Jennifer, 50. Okay. Oh, 50, 10. Okay, it’s either 50 or less than that. Wow. Okay. You may be right, Steve. It’s 25. Maya says 20. Howard 28.
00:44:36 So I call this the green button paradox because why wouldn’t someone hit the button like
00:44:43 Right
00:44:44 We should all be able to say that’s 100%. Now, what I do, I work to program the button. I want to give people great instructions for this. My gut feeling would be about 50%.
00:44:55 And I’m hearing a lot more low gases than high guesses myself. So, like, I would be on the higher end. Maybe I’m optimistic, or I don’t even know what the word for it is. But let’s say, for the sake of argument, it’s 25% just for clarity’s sakes. You know what I’m talking about
00:45:12 when, like, the 25%, we can give them perfect knowledge about why networking works, and we can give them the hows of here’s the two-hour job search, go with it. What are we doing to address the 75%?
00:45:37 Right.
00:45:38 Because now we’re starting to get into the world to me of therapy. Like, how do we get people to do something that they know is in their best interest, but what is holding them back? And that would be the next, yeah, anxiety and fear. Technically, the anxiety shouldn’t be there because they’d know they’d have perfect performance, but I think
00:45:42 They are exhausted at the thought of forming relationships with strangers. Like, that… I think that’s part of it. The one thing now, now ask yourself, and before I give you my hypothesis.
00:45:54 And I’m going to be posting on this on LinkedIn in the next day or two. Ask yourself what you think would be the best single technique. What could you do that would get somebody to push the button? How would you get someone who would otherwise not push the button to do so
00:46:10 My best guess
00:46:12 is you tell that person that 95% of their classmates have pushed the button.
00:46:16 Oh, peer pressure, okay
00:46:18 Or peer pressure, or it’s okay
00:46:28 Right.
00:46:29 It’s not even peer pressure. It’s just, I think it’s a fear of being straying from the herd. I think that’s why a lot of us are in the minority. Only a minority will push that button because they don’t want to stand out. They don’t want to be different. They don’t want to take that risk. And again, that’s our brains catastrophizing what could possibly go wrong
00:46:40 Yeah.
00:46:41 But I think if we create an environment where all of their their peers did it, all of their peers are doing this understanding and demonstrating their aptitude at this. I think the green button paradox goes away.
00:46:48 So, but I think that’s the next frontier for career services, is how do we help that 75% that don’t push the button
00:46:56 Because we can only what can we even do if we can’t get them to take this free knowledge and free information? And that may be navigating like true therapy topics like fear and anxiety. I wish I had an answer to give to you all, but I don’t. This is why it’s been so
00:47:13 dominating my brain the last couple of weeks. So please, when you see this discussion pop up in the next day or two, please participate. I’d love to get people thinking, because I think that’s the next frontier. That’s the next step. When AI takes networking off the table or takes applying off the table, what comes next? It’s networking
00:47:30 But we know 75% of people aren’t going to push that button even if we gave the boat wrapped up in a bow tie or in a bow for them.
00:47:38 How do we address that?
00:47:40 So I like what Tammy said. For me, it’s also about this normalizing, right? You’ve got to help students develop this muscle tissue when they’re on campus. To your point, everybody else is doing it. Make it a required exercise where you reach out to someone, you push that greet button
00:48:07 Right?
00:48:08 And you see people respond to you, right? Because the challenge, you know, somebody mentioned in the chat is when you grew up as a first-gen low income, nobody in your household ever talked about networking. Nobody ever talked about mentoring, right? You had other primary concerns
00:48:12 when you’re now fortunate enough to attend an institution of higher education, they need to teach these students. It is going to be okay. You’re part of a great community. You need to reach out because we’re not going to let you just rely on applications. So it needs to be a requirement. Some schools doing a great job at it
00:48:30 They make it part of that first year experience. Most, it’s still optional. And I really hope to see that change.
00:48:40 So other things we had, and I know I’m watching time a little bit
00:48:47 So this goes back to, actually, this is a great segue. What do I wish, and Steve, you two, career services would teach students, right? How can you equip students while they’re on campus
00:49:00 to become these amazing networkers that they need to be in this new world
00:49:05 And yeah, for me it is reach your network, read your book. Let’s start with that, right? I mean, is any institutions have to integrate into their curriculum outside of Fuqua, saying you’ve got to read the book, it’s part of this class
00:49:19 Okay, good, good. Yes
00:49:25 Good, good, good, yeah.
00:49:27 Fantastic.
00:49:28 Many. Yeah, handfuls at least. But yeah, I don’t want to put anyone on blast right now, but yeah, no, it’s integrated as a textbook in a number of programs, yes.
00:49:30 Right, and that’s why I’d love for prospective parents to actually ask the schools, right, are you teaching it? Because it is such a life skill, right? And then, of course, from our side, scaling the connections, right? Now that you’ve taught everybody you’re doing it, what are the strategies recommend
00:49:46 And how do you make it simple for someone to do that? So we’re coming to the end and right, we’re going to have questions. I’ve written a bunch of questions now on this. Hopefully taken away that AI is for efficiency, as Steve talks about that in his book, that these are tools to help you with certain things
00:50:03 Like the lampless, right? Getting someone to actually act and take that courage to press the button. Most important, and again, this is really where we started this webinar, human connections. Don’t rely on AI. If everybody has access to AI, you’re not special.
00:50:20 use the humans and those weak ties networks around you to reach out. Human beings love helping. It is… we’re all good human beings, and it’s amazing to see. Before we get into Q&A, I wanted to ask you, at the end of it, we’ll send it out via email
00:50:37 We’ve got a survey launch to understand a little bit of what schools already do around networking, what you’re teaching, whether it’s working, where some of those gaps are, and when you complete the survey, we are going to get you a signed copy of Steve’s book. There’s 25 that you’ll be eligible to win one of those
00:50:56 So, again, follow the link. It’ll be in the chat, and we’ll email you as well. We’d love to know what works for you, what doesn’t work. And again, cannot recommend enough the book on integrating the Classroom.
00:51:08 So with that, we’d love to get your questions. Steve, there’s a couple already that I’d love to ask you now, and I’ll start with Howard’s question, Howard Graham said he teaches undergrad careers class
00:51:24 about authenticity as an essential component. How do you teach authenticity as part of this process? Can you
00:51:32 Absolutely. I think getting people familiar with the research that’s out there, like there is no more like, so there’s
00:51:43 Research that shows the more you allow someone to speak in conversation, the more they report liking their conversation partner. There’s other research that shows that a follow-up question, when it’s your turn to speak, but you instead choose to dig further into something that somebody said previously, is the most single most likable behavior. That’s a 2017 Harvard study
00:52:00 That’s the single most cyclical behavior in conversation. I think students are susceptible to the lazy messaging on the Internet that says, sell yourself, and they go into these conversations thinking they need to score points and sell themselves, and that makes them hate networking, and I would too.
00:52:15 If I were in their shoes. This conversation is not about them, that they should be spending 80% of their time listening, 20% talking, and really only if asked. Because if the other person’s talking, you’re building likability by showing good taste in who you listen to speak.
00:52:30 So to me, the authenticity is leading with curiosity, and that that starts with choosing the right targets. You know, the lamp list, it’s still one thing that hasn’t changed is the whole point of the lamp list is to get down to a top six that you initiate networking with. Networking takes time
00:52:45 To start with more than six, you just don’t have the time and you don’t have the knowledge yet. You can work your way up to a top eight, top nine over time once you demonstrate proficiency, but starting with companies that you find interesting, which is why I say start with no more than three sectors. So what you learn from one company helps inform your conversation with the next one. And that means a max of one Mag seven company
00:53:07 and a top 6. The problem I I it’s just I know it’s going to be a long day when I see a top 6 that’s Amazon Meta like NVIDIA. Those companies have nothing to do with one another. So asking, getting students to really drill down on like why this company
00:53:26 Right.
00:53:27 Oh, because they’re big, recognizable names, and you think they offer security, what do they get out of that
00:53:28 Yeah.
00:53:29 Oh, that’s good for you, but is that good for them? Well, let’s try it. Like, why do you find these so compelling and let’s find three sectors that incorporate one or more of the Mag seven
00:53:40 But getting people to start with sectors that they find genuinely interesting. So worst case scenario is they just learn stuff about a topic they find inherently interesting. That
00:53:51 Curiosity is the single factor I wish I could bottle and give to job seekers, because those are the students I’ve never had to worry about are the ones who lead with curiosity. But
00:54:03 Yes.
00:54:12 Yep.
00:54:13 And this is actually where AI could help, right? I mean, why could I not ask Claude, give me the most innovative schools in digital advertising. Most employers digital advertising that operate out of the UK and then build your list, right? Why is it a good company?
00:54:15 And to your point, do they appreciate the values that are I appreciate
00:54:19 So at least get to that list very, very quickly.
00:54:21 Absolutely true. So authenticity starts with curiosity. It starts about making these calls about others instead of yourself. And that means deprogramming them from a lot of bad messaging, bad counterproductive messaging that they’re internalizing from AI, which learned what it read on the internet. Sell yourself needs to die in a fire. It needs to go away because nobody likes selling themselves, nobody likes being sold to
00:54:44 But literally, they hear this every day.
00:54:52 Me too
00:54:53 And so there was an interesting question cameo. By the way, Cameo, I love what you wrote around teaching students these connections in class. That is perfect. Everybody should do that. Take the fear and anxiety off the table and normalize that you can reach out to human beings
00:55:02 But also question around is thoughts on better recipes for meeting people at events and established communities
00:55:09 How would you… how do you think about that?
00:55:23 Okay.
00:55:24 So I call it super yao. I think superyao is my term. Again, get the third edition. I describe it there. Because companies, one of the things they bring me and teach is better small talk because just young people are great at it and it’s hard and it makes a ton of sense.
00:55:27 And I have to give a shout out to my former colleague, Sean Pulcher. I don’t know if he’s on the call, but at Fuqua, one of my professional inspirations, honestly. So if you don’t know who he is, like, find out. He’s one of the smartest people in the space. But he told me a story that’s always stayed with me, and Super Yao is a direct result of what I learned from him
00:55:45 Told me about an event where his child went to a field trip to a farm, and her teacher said, okay, now all questions are good questions, but the best questions start with why and how.
00:55:56 And it just hit me like a brick, because why and how demand open-ended answers. And let me just give you a quick example. If you ask somebody what they did before business school, you will get a closed-ended answer. Like, I was an IT consultant, and I was right back on you to ask another question or think of something else to say to keep the conversation going.
00:56:14 But if you say, why did you choose business school? How did you decide to transition away from being, how did you decide to come to business school to change careers? Like those give you stories which make asking those very, very likable follow-up questions much easier. So the superyao, basically the shorthand for making better small talk at networking events
00:56:36 Ask why and how questions and ask superlatives. What’s your favorite part about what’s your least favorite? What’s the most impactful? What was the scariest? What was the most surprising? All of these are superlatives. That’s the shorthand for better networking event conversations.
00:56:51 Okay. Laura Rath asks, can you please speak more to the speed piece and being one of the first 20 to apply that appears really hard to meet.
00:57:01 I mean, it’s
00:57:02 Yeah, I was wondering about that too. Right.
00:57:06 Okay.
00:57:11 Yeah.
00:57:12 It’s impossible to meet and it’s going to get progressively harder. So I don’t have thoughts on how to beat an online application because there’s no way to beat them that’s going to be sustainable. And our world is changing so fast. So if like the way I put it, so again, I think there are three main ways to find jobs. We already talked about it. All I ask is my two hour job search readers do their networking first.
00:57:37 Yeah.
00:57:38 That is the entree. That is your vegetables. Like everything else is dessert. So what you do after that 15 minutes of required networking in a day is up to you. If you want to apply to jobs, great. Just focus on ones that just popped up in the last 24 hours would be my recommendation. If you don’t care where you work
00:57:40 And you still want to apply to jobs, do that. I would recommend going more on the attracting space of, like, comment on other people whose work and insight you find interesting in your targeted space. I think that’s going to yield better long-term goals, but
00:57:57 Right.
00:57:58 Yeah, it’s not a sustainable win. Bots are going to do this while we sleep, so I don’t have strong thoughts on how to be the first to apply.
00:58:15 No.
00:58:16 Yeah, speed is not the way to get a job. There will always be somebody faster than you. Now, this is a good question. I wonder how companies, employers will change their job postings in response to the flood they anticipate. Have you seen that already? I mean, you mentioned a little bit the QR code, right? The analog application
00:58:18 Here’s the dirty secret. Like if what is happening right now was bad enough
00:58:25 Companies would change what they’re doing.
00:58:28 Okay.
00:58:29 But they’re apparently not suffering enough pain to change their methodology, which should tell you that they’re okay with how the process works right now.
00:58:55 Yeah.
00:58:56 They’re satisficing. They’re finding good enough candidates in that first batch, and they’re forwarding them on, and the job function… the recruiter, the hiring manager is happy with the talent that comes through, or ask them to take another pass. But they vote with their feet. If they were, if things were truly as bad as they said with AI flooding their online applications
00:58:59 They would change their ways, and they’re not doing that, and there’s no… there’s no articles about it. You don’t read about it. Like, how could that not have happened? They don’t think there’s money or incentive in it for them.
00:59:10 Right
00:59:11 So that to me says like, okay, applying is going to continue getting worse until they feel that pain, they’re not going to change. Networking is still going to be the best route. It’s only going to improve in comparison to applying as the bots get better at applying.
00:59:23 Okay. Jennifer asks, any advice specifically for job seeking international students? Is there a nuance
00:59:29 But it makes sure it’s a bimodal search. Focus on big companies that you know do sponsor. These are ones you don’t need to tell them to pursue. They’re already pursuing mag seven companies that are open to them, but don’t rule out small or mid-sized employers. That’s the arbitrage opportunity
00:59:49 Yeah.
00:59:50 If they go to one of those employers and take away all that company search costs, the company now has, if they’re a better level of talent than what they would see in their local market, then that company is going to have an incentive to learn about the risks and rewards of applying for sponsorship. So
01:00:02 Getting international students to open their minds to less obvious employers is critical, and that means an AI makes that so much easier than it ever was before because AI can frame them in positive lights. Oh, here’s an exciting company that not many people know about. That’s the one to go to. That’s the arbitrage opportunity.
01:00:20 Right. Excellent. So we’re out of time, Steve. Thank you so much. I really appreciate you joining us today. I did want to end with one last pitch from my side because I’m a huge fan of careers and hopefully everybody’s taken it away
01:00:35 And how important careers of institutions. So we are going to share more on this around additional AI logic that can help basically connect students opportunities and drive the referral piece. But Steve, this was amazing. Thank you. I really appreciate we finally got a chance to connect
01:00:54 I love what you do. Again, I’m not jesting when I think every school needs to teach this. It is not a nice-to-have, it is critical. I do believe job search is going away, and those students that know how to network gotta be much more successful in life, period.
01:01:11 Couldn’t agree with you more
01:01:12 So
01:01:13 Thank you, everybody. Thank you for attending. We are going to share the recording, everyone. Again, Steve and I are North Carolina. The weather is nice, so we’re probably going to take a walk now. I really appreciate everybody making time, and be well, and keep supporting students.
01:01:28 Take care, everybody.